Simon Weaver vs AVB

I think Irving has done a lot which I'm sure most people also think which is probably not worth going into too much detail as everybody knows what has been done in terms of youth development, community links development, ground and facilities improvement, pitch improvement, squad enhancement, fans forums, fans offers, creation of the htsc I could go on.

Having spoken to somebody close to the club who was looking at finances needed to run a club like Town they worked out that Irving has been losing 100k a year to maintain the club, which is about average for a conference north side with a regular attendance of c500 people. To break even a club needs c700 average and development of commercial revenue which obviously is where they seem to be trying to get to and are then able to invest even more into the club. To give you an example the proposed stand improvement at the end of the season will cost £200k by itself- quite a lot of cash. the pitch, i'm not sure but over the last 2 seasons i reckon about £150k. One 25-30 goal a season striker is 750-1000£ a week thats 40-50K pa without all the bonus clauses and add ons. Something they have stayed away from due to trying to run a balanced account system, but something I suspect they recognise they need to spend money into the future, to achieve the objective of promotion that everybody wants.

I suspect though that your issue is not Irving, but that having Irving looks like the continued management of Simon into the future, and the potential nepotism that this continued regime may suggest if we are not achieving as much as we perceive we should be.

My continued thoughts are that we have no god given right to be above the 6th place that we achieved last season which was an overachievement with that squad. Agreed this season has been very frustrating and is an underperformance being in 9th, everybody recognises that, but we are looking at a team 9th in the table not 20th the 3point deduction was not Simon fault and also came at a bad time. Admittedly sometimes I look at the onfield tactics / subs and disagree with them. You know how i feel about 2 strikers like you. However i do think the tactics are improving and for me we just lack firepower sometimes and are missing a couple of key players to make the team a title contending team. So from my perspective there is a lot to look forward to, into the future. Let's be excited and look at what is happening at the club 1500 and 900 at the last 2 games! Incredible.

I really hope we get a decent turnout against Telford. Imagine if we were right up there now the potential in the crowd sizes, we are turning into a bigger football club, the sleeping giant is awakening!

DK what would your key learnings be from the first half of the season and what would you do now to improve? What would your starting 11/ formation be for tomorrow?

I guess none of actually knows whether Aspin or Simon Weaver had a bigger budget, it does seem to be true that Neil spent it on a smallish number of players, hence the infamous one or subs on the bench we sometimes had. Surely, also, no-one can deny Neil's talents as a manager, he is currently leading a part-time team into the play off places in the Conference Prem! Sounds pretty good to me.

Yeah that's right Paul, Aspin is a decent manager, but even he couldn't get us near promotion, save one playoff finish, with a supposed higher budget.

TownUltra wrote:I think Irving has done a lot which I'm sure most people also think which is probably not worth going into too much detail as everybody knows what has been done in terms of youth development, community links development, ground and facilities improvement, pitch improvement, squad enhancement, fans forums, fans offers, creation of the htsc I could go on.

Having spoken to somebody close to the club who was looking at finances needed to run a club like Town they worked out that Irving has been losing 100k a year to maintain the club, which is about average for a conference north side with a regular attendance of c500 people. To break even a club needs c700 average and development of commercial revenue which obviously is where they seem to be trying to get to and are then able to invest even more into the club. To give you an example the proposed stand improvement at the end of the season will cost £200k by itself- quite a lot of cash. the pitch, i'm not sure but over the last 2 seasons i reckon about £150k. One 25-30 goal a season striker is 750-1000£ a week thats 40-50K pa without all the bonus clauses and add ons. Something they have stayed away from due to trying to run a balanced account system, but something I suspect they recognise they need to spend money into the future, to achieve the objective of promotion that everybody wants.

I suspect though that your issue is not Irving, but that having Irving looks like the continued management of Simon into the future, and the potential nepotism that this continued regime may suggest if we are not achieving as much as we perceive we should be.

My continued thoughts are that we have no god given right to be above the 6th place that we achieved last season which was an overachievement with that squad. Agreed this season has been very frustrating and is an underperformance being in 9th, everybody recognises that, but we are looking at a team 9th in the table not 20th the 3point deduction was not Simon fault and also came at a bad time. Admittedly sometimes I look at the onfield tactics / subs and disagree with them. You know how i feel about 2 strikers like you. However i do think the tactics are improving and for me we just lack firepower sometimes and are missing a couple of key players to make the team a title contending team. So from my perspective there is a lot to look forward to, into the future. Let's be excited and look at what is happening at the club 1500 and 900 at the last 2 games! Incredible.

I really hope we get a decent turnout against Telford. Imagine if we were right up there now the potential in the crowd sizes, we are turning into a bigger football club, the sleeping giant is awakening!

DK what would your key learnings be from the first half of the season and what would you do now to improve? What would your starting 11/ formation be for tomorrow?

OK that is at least the kind of response I was hoping for as often people just wildly speculate. What I will say regarding the facts and figures, 3 things: Firstly I obviously don't know your source and whilst I have no reason not to believe what he/she says, anyone who might be considered inner circle is bound to sell it that way and paint that kind of picture. Unless the books are publicly opened we'll never really know the precise details. Secondly over the last 18 months I doubt very much the chairman had to put anything like that amount in, if indeed anything at all, considering how much we made from the cup "run" and thirdly whilst 100k seems like a huge sum of money to the ordinary man in the street, to a hugely wealthy building magnate with clever accountants it's not so impressive. I bet he earns many, many times that amount in interest and clever tax dodges etc etc. So let's keep things in perspective, as a percentage of income or net worth I bet most of us aren't that far behind in terms of what we put in to the club over the turnstyle. He's hardly doing an Abramovich.

With regards to the stand improvements. Three things: One, I thought that they were being funded by the Football Trust. Two, who will be contracted to building them? Three, let's see if they actually happen eh? Some of the other things you mention, whilst I'm sure we're all grateful, are things that should be expected from any modern club. OK I can't deny that on face value Weaver seems far better than Fotherby who clearly overlooked a lot of things but that was because his strategy was different. Having been involved in football previously and at a much higher level, he understood that the success of a football club stems from the team and not vice versa. Unfortunately for him, he couldn't take us up but had he done so, who knows what would have come to fruition regarding the club's facilities? I'm not sure Irving warrants the Dear Leader status he seems to enjoy amongst some of you. Ultimately in real terms we've made no progress whatsoever. Aspin had us in the playoffs. In 5 years Simon hasn't managed to repeat that. Those are indisputable facts.

You're right in that I do have issues with the chairman and they are many and varied. I think there is more than meets the eye with the man and I just don't trust him. I didn't like his attitude earlier in the season and I have serious concerns over his real motives. Some of which are clear and some of which are not so clear. Irving is a businessman, presumably this "investment" that many of you champion is not a gift. How and when he will rein it back in or make a nice return in the future remains to be seen but the idea that he's doing it all for us is as silly as it is naive and romantic.

I agree about the crowd sizes. Attendances have held up well considering how up and down this season has been. Imagine if we were where we should be in the top 3 right now and playing the football we're capable of...Irving would easily have those 700 average attendance he craves. If we could go up it's clear we would regularly enjoy crowds of well over 1000. Under different circumstances the chairman would be able to consider those things very carefully when thinking about the way forward, unfortunately he's backed into a corner isn't he?

Maybe its just me but the style and standard of football under aspin was far better than that compared to weaver. Players like roy hunter and denny ingram who would run through brick walls for the manager. A top class centre forward in danny holland who may do nothing for the best part of the game then grab you something out of nothing.

Fotherby neglected the ground and overall infrastructure, there's no doubt about that. After watching consistently good performances I can't say I cared. My best moments as a town supporter have come under aspin as manager, that's just my personal view. Aspin's problem was that he invested in quality rather than quantity so we always ran out of steam towards the end of the season. A couple of additions and I'm sure promotion would be there for the taking as he achieved for halifax.

I do have an issue with simon as manager - he's not there on merit and ain't good enough for the job. Some may differ but the promise of Irving's millions is what's secured his position as manager. He makes poor decisions, the turnover of players is crazy and we only ever seem a couple of weeks away from the next cock up. Dare raise any of these issues and you have the town mafia on your back.

town supporter wrote: Dare raise any of these issues and you have the town mafia on your back.

I think their position is clear. "We're building towards something" "Rome wasn't built in a day" "look at the progress we've made" "trust us" etc etc and all of the other mantras they keep drumming into folk until everybody else is singing along with it. They clearly believe that we are making progress and we are doing so bit by bit, step by step and eventually, if we just follow the course we're on, all of our hopes and dreams will come to fruition. Of course they might...but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

I think where you and I stand TS is that, certainly in terms of the manager/team, history just seems fated to keep repeating itself. I've no crystal ball but I'd be willing to bet that we won't make the playoffs this year. Next year? I wouldn't put money on that either. If things don't pan out as they hope and Irving really is losing lots of his own personal wealth, I wonder at what point both Weavers will decide it's time to call it a day and I wonder what the exit strategy will be.

Interesting to read that nepotism seems to run right through the Weaver line. They seem to be used to having things handed to them. I hope to God Simon doesn't have any sons or this whole thing could outlive all of us!

DK I think you sum up my feelings, i'm not sure how others feel, but would welcome their input. I do believe that we are growing both on an off the field. Admittedly not as consistently on the field as I would have liked this season and I expected to do better this season given the noises made at the beginning of the season.

Remember though, in our (nearly 100 yrs) this is the highest league we have ever been in, last season was one position lower than we have ever achieved (Once under Aspin ((A very good manager)), with Fotherby bankrolling). Is it that bad????!!!

You have expressed your doubts on where this is going, ie upper midtable averageness over the next couple of years, but what you haven't done is suggest what the alternative is? What we should do?

What would you do to change? What would be your plan?

Please TS, don't say Chucklevision and son would be yours.

I'm pretty sure that given the same budget, the chuckle brothers themselves could do a better job than Simon.  They're big advocates of to me to you,  so we'd be able to enjoy good football, pass and move as it should be. Paul chuckle could be good cop to barry's bad cop (or is it the other way round, I'm really not sure). As they are both big Rotherham fans they could call on the expertise of former Rotherham legends mark Robbins and ronnie moore for any advice that's needed.  Team talks would be straight forward and to the point.  Attendances would improve due to the sheer entertainment value. So there you have it town ultra - sack simon and welcome aboard the chuckle brothers - without hesitation would get my vote.

Dark Knight wrote:

town supporter wrote: Dare raise any of these issues and you have the town mafia on your back.

I think their position is clear. "We're building towards something" "Rome wasn't built in a day" "look at the progress we've made" "trust us" etc etc and all of the other mantras they keep drumming into folk until everybody else is singing along with it. They clearly believe that we are making progress and we are doing so bit by bit, step by step and eventually, if we  just follow the course we're on, all of our hopes and dreams will come to fruition. Of course they might...but I wouldn't bet my house on it.

I think where you and I stand TS is that, certainly in terms of the manager/team, history just seems fated to keep repeating itself. I've no crystal ball but I'd be willing to bet that we won't make the playoffs this year. Next year? I wouldn't put money on that either. If things don't pan out as they hope and Irving really is losing lots of his own personal wealth, I wonder at what point both Weavers will decide it's time to call it a day and I wonder what the exit strategy will be.

Interesting to read that nepotism seems to run right through the Weaver line. They seem to be used to having things handed to them. I hope to God Simon doesn't have any sons or this whole thing could outlive all of us!

Here's a radical idea get from behind your computer desk go outside, learn how to coach, get some badges, build a CV, get a managers job then see how hard it is. Till then Simon's the man

Gareth192001 wrote:

Here's a radical idea get from behind your computer desk go outside, learn how to coach, get some badges, build a CV, get a managers job then see how hard it is. Till then Simon's the man

Hahahaha! Said without even a hint of irony! Remind me just how hard Simon has had it.

I'm pretty sure if I had a millionaire Dad, I too could get a gig somewhere and make a complete pig's ear of it, whilst finding the spare time and money to do UEFA coaching badges. Which incidentally won't make one iota of difference because management is not the same thing as coaching. Maybe if he'd bothered to get his coaching badges sooner he might have done a better job and people wouldn't have spent the last 5 years questioning if the man was actually competent enough to do the job.

Town Ultra, you keep asking what would I do? It's perfectly simple, unless results improve and we start showing some consistency, I'd be looking for a new manager. It's not rocket science and yet we find ourselves in the ludicrous position where the chairman isn't even contemplating it.

Haha! In trying to have a swipe at me Gareth, you've inadvertently hit the bullseye as to what the problem is. Congratulations, topic closed!

Another question Simon goes whats his Dad going to do?

Gareth192001 wrote:Another question Simon goes whats his Dad going to do?

He could either

A) Appoint a quality manager, spend some beans on a goalscorer, sit back and watch us tear this league a new one

or

B) Hand the reins over to somebody else

See its the B option i dont like how many millionaires are there out there willing to invest in a none league team

Gareth192001 wrote:See its the B option i dont like how many millionaires are there out there willing to invest in a none league team

Yes I know, like many of Town's supporters you feel held to ransom by the situation and are gripped by fear and it affects your ability to think rationally about things. That is why I keep making the dictatorship comparisons.

You shouldn't worry about it. Football is about ideas. Swansea have just made a football club worth a hundred times their own value look like a bunch of pub team mugs. One day Irving will be gone. The next man may not have a penny but he may have a better plan.

Besides, there's not much point in having a multi millionaire chairman if the manager isn't up to the job.

Is it really a dictatorship though? I feel that we have a club to be proud of with the ground, links to the community, website etc but as said previously this is what should be expected of any good chairman.

I don't think we will ever hear about the finances of the club and I don't doubt that the likes of Woods is being paid more than the going rate but I also believe that he could attract that wage at a number of other clubs in our league and higher so I don't see the issue there.

When we get to the end of the season I think we will all look back on missed chances (the 3 points etc) as the reason for losing out on promotion but the main point that will be raised will be the lack of a Striker that scores the decisive goals that turns the 2-2 result into 3 points. The reason for the lack of such signing I don't know but without this player how many managers would of gained promotion with the current squad? Not many is my opinion.

At the moment with the improvements in form each season I have no issue with Simon as manager of our football club, with or without his Father as Chairman. In 2 years time if we still have the same structure in terms of board, staff and players then I would be starting to wonder if he was the right man for the job because questions would have to be asked on when we are going to make the step up from an established North club to a Premier club.

Gareth192001 wrote:Another question Simon goes whats his Dad going to do?

Irving has already previously stated that if his son was to leave the club, for whatever reason. He would actively look to sell his holding in the club, but he also did say that if it ever came to that, he would ensure that we are not just left in the lurch, as such.

Championship Manager wrote:Is it really a dictatorship though?  

Well, I suppose it depends on your point of view. The facts are that Irving is a multi-millionaire and the chairman of the club, his son Simon is the manager and Irving has more or less said that Simon's job will be safe regardless of results as long as he is chairman. Now people seem to be happy with that because Irving is apparently ploughing lots of his dough into the club. Personally I don't like this "arrangement". It is akin to selling your soul to the devil. I'm told that viewpoint is offensive, as is any talk of dictatorship, by the same people who told me when I first came on here that I was the one who would need a thick skin. But essentially, that's what it is, emotional blackmail, a set up that has us, the fans, well and truly by the balls and it is affecting people's rationality. They all say that they think Simon is the right man for the job, seldom providing any actual evidence to back up their position, but in the next breath the actual truth comes out in their fears - "If Simon goes, Irving will go" "Where will we find another wealthy benefactor willing to take us on?" etc etc.

It seems that quite a lot of people deep down are only really behind the manager because they are worried about losing the chairman or, more pertinently, his money. As I keep reiterating, you just can't live like that. What kind of self respecting person allows themselves to be put in that position? Being held to ransom is a position I'll never be comfortable with or fully tolerate and the arguments for it wear thin after a while which is why I probably come across as being very resistant to the current regime.

Also, for those of you who are willing to put up with this "conditional love", shouldn't some of your conditions, your parts of the bargain start being met? What I mean by that is, if Simon cannot deliver the goods but Irving is unwilling to consider replacing him then surely he has to dig a bit deeper into those mighty pockets of his. All this talk of not being able to compete because teams (like North Ferriby) have a bigger budget should be blown right out of the water. But the fact is the chairman talks about making the club sustainable. Now I'll admit, I'm much happier with us being run on a sustainable basis but should that start happening then I'm afraid Simon can no longer enjoy immunity. The trouble is nobody, other than those with access to the books, really know to what extent this "pact" is being kept.

One thing we all seem agreed on is that the platform for success is there so the bottom line is this, after 5 years of Simon as manager and 3 years of Irving as chairman, it's time for fight or flight, do or die, sink or swim. From here on in, what happens on the pitch needs to be our priority. It's time for us to have a serious team, with a serious manager, challenging consistently for promotion.

Championship Manager wrote: how many managers would of gained promotion with the current squad? Not many is my opinion.

I hate to say this but Aspin would have had these guys right up there.

I think we're doing pretty well as a club. I'm happy we're on the up. What would make me ecstatic is the arrival of one if not two heavyweight, badass, proven 25 goal a season strikers to complement the squad (and also another box to box midfielder).

We get that we're going up in the next 2 years. I'd put Dark Knight's batcave on it. I think DK just likes to have a moan, is there anything generally in your life DK that you commentate on that you are happy with?

I bet that a heavyweight 25-30 goal a season would even give DKs latex suit an embarrassing swelling mound in the groin region. More so even than would a picture on the batcave wall of a 1990s Aspin in a hot tub with John Deacey's head superimposed on it.

TownUltra wrote:We get that we're going up in the next 2 years. I'd put Dark Knight's batcave on it.

And is this based on anything other than just a hunch or a gut feeling that Simon will come good or is it like your prediction thread? Completely baseless? You know, the one where you had us down for 3 defeats in our remaining 27 games? Something we managed to surpass in just 7!!!

Win 4, lose 3, Draw 1, Lose 2, Win 2, Lose 2, Win 3, Lose 2, Win 5, Lose 5, beat a top team 4 or 5 nil one week, lose to a bunch of mugs 1-0 the next...repeat ad nauseum. If you have a single shred of evidence that Simon's win percentage is on an upward curve and we can all just sit back and wait for us to steamroller the division then I'd love to hear it.

I'm not a moaner, I just don't wear amber and black tinted specs all the time.

DK so much frustration and anger in your continual sentiment. Maybe it's time to loosen the batsuit a little bit if the rubber is chafing too much. If i didn't know you better i'd almost think that you want another manager instead of Simon Weaver as you think we're underachieving by not getting promoted.

I'm not sure though that Irving Weaver is the devil. The devil causes famine, starvation, poverty and mindless war and violence in this World. The devil creates hatred and fear towards others. The devil would probably burn the Town ground down with the HTSC locked in the 1919 bar making us decide between death and eternal damnation by becoming Guiseley fans whilst at the same time putting us into administration and turning the club into a yellow and back werewolf that could be heard on dark nights (no pun intended) on the Stray. Irving on the other hand is investing in both on and off field facilities to the benefit of the club. Not the sort of thing that Lucifer would be doing.

I do think though that if we don't go up this year, even more cash will be splashed on the strike force and that to me is the key thing we're missing this season. Look through the peepholes more closely and I'm sure you'll see it too.

Irving seems like a top bloke to me, I love him, in a manly homorespectus type way. We're going up and know matter how much you want to moan, get the striker in and it's coming home.

CONFERENCE PREMIER BABY HERE WE COME- FOR AT LEAST ONE SEASON!! BOOOMMM.

EE EYE EE EYE EE WE GO, UP THE CONFERENCE NORTH WE GO... don't know the rest but you get the intent.

TownUltra wrote: If i didn't know you better i'd almost think that you want another manager instead of Simon Weaver as you think we're underachieving by not getting promoted.

I want Simon to be a first rate manager. I genuinely like him. But if you scrutinise all the evidence it just doesn't stack up. And so the point is, the curve has to start turning upward soon and with relative speed. If we are sat here at the end of next season and he still has a win percentage hovering around the 35-40% mark, will you be saying the same things? Give it more time? Have faith? etc etc

TownUltra wrote:
I do think though that if we don't go up this year, even more cash will be splashed on the strike force and that to me is the key thing we're missing this season.  

Hmmm. A lot of Manchester United fans keep telling me they'll be back once they've signed Messi and Ronaldo, blissfully unaware what the common denominator was and seemingly forgetting that he has now gone.

Dark Knight wrote:

Championship Manager wrote:Is it really a dictatorship though?  

Well, I suppose it depends on your point of view. The facts are that Irving is a multi-millionaire and the chairman of the club, his son Simon is the manager and Irving has more or less said that Simon's job will be safe regardless of results as long as he is chairman. Now people seem to be happy with that because Irving is apparently ploughing lots of his dough into the club. Personally I don't like this "arrangement". It is akin to selling your soul to the devil. I'm told that viewpoint is offensive, as is any talk of dictatorship, by the same people who told me when I first came on here that I was the one who would need a thick skin. But essentially, that's what it is, emotional blackmail, a set up that has us, the fans, well and truly by the balls and it is affecting people's rationality. They all say that they think Simon is the right man for the job, seldom providing any actual evidence to back up their position, but in the next breath the actual truth comes out in their fears - "If Simon goes, Irving will go" "Where will we find another wealthy benefactor willing to take us on?" etc etc.

It seems that quite a lot of people deep down are only really behind the manager because they are worried about losing the chairman or, more pertinently, his money. As I keep reiterating, you just can't live like that. What kind of self respecting person allows themselves to be put in that position? Being held to ransom is a position I'll never be comfortable with or fully tolerate and the arguments for it wear thin after a while which is why I probably come across as being very resistant to the current regime.

Also, for those of you who are willing to put up with this "conditional love", shouldn't some of your conditions, your parts of the bargain start being met? What I mean by that is, if Simon cannot deliver the goods but Irving is unwilling to consider replacing him then surely he has to dig a bit deeper into those mighty pockets of his. All this talk of not being able to compete because teams (like North Ferriby) have a bigger budget should be blown right out of the water. But the fact is the chairman talks about making the club sustainable. Now I'll admit, I'm much happier with us being run on a sustainable basis but should that start happening then I'm afraid Simon can no longer enjoy immunity. The trouble is nobody, other than those with access to the books, really know to what extent this "pact" is being kept.

One thing we all seem agreed on is that the platform for success is there so the bottom line is this, after 5 years of Simon as manager and 3 years of Irving as chairman, it's time for fight or flight, do or die, sink or swim. From here on in, what happens on the pitch needs to be our priority. It's time for us to have a serious team, with a serious manager, challenging consistently for promotion.

Championship Manager wrote: how many managers would of gained promotion with the current squad? Not many is my opinion.

I hate to say this but Aspin would have had these guys right up there.

Aspin would never find himself in such a position. He wouldn't have signed players who he didn't know where best to play. He appreciated the talent provided by danny holland having a 20 goal plus a season striker. Danny was a central figure and there was always a decent supply line as we played with width, colin hunter on the left, chris bettney on the right. Donkey work done by roy hunter chasing down every lost cause. Defenders didn't give an inch- it wasn't difficult to work out what position aspin himself had played. Strange that under Weaver there is such an obvious lack of discipline defending a lead.

Maybe it's because our previous manager was so good that I struggle so much with simon in charge. Even previous to that john reed's teams played a distinct style of football. Never really sure what to expect at present.

My main concern ironically enough at the moment is conceding goals, which i'm hoping the signing of Matt Heath and also when Leigh Franks coming back, will address.

We also need to get a decent, proven striker in, and it needs to happen soon. With the current strikeforce, you cant blame them for effort, but they are too inconsistent. I dont know whether to blame them, or blame the manager for not giving them solid runs in the team, in their preferred positions.

Deacey would buy a cement mixer and build a wall in the goal so that we wouldn't concede goals. Aspin would take down the goals and hide them in Halifax- nobody would score!

In all seriousness though we have conceded too many goals, the Franks injury hasn't helped. I think back four of Mezza, Killock, Heath and Samuels is the way forward to solidity.