Simon Weaver vs AVB

A couple of drinks into new year's eve but just occured to me the similarities between our esteemed manager and AVB. Think about it, both come from privileged backgrounds, young and intelligent with plenty of ideas. Sadly though, both are not cut out for management, struggle to get their ideas across to the players and have spent big sumsof money with little success. Worth a ponder. Time to appoint the chuckle brother don't you think town ultra?

Have a happy new year all.

I think your wrong

Happy new year

There are similar comparisons, but AVB was hugely successful in his stint at Porto and wasn't given enough time at Chelsea or Tottenham.

Simon has been in charge of the same club for 4/5 years now. He's had enough time, he has got the backing, but still can't seem to get his ideas across, and the consistency is not there, but he has the safest job in English football.

Right simple question if not Simon then who?

If Craig leaves for Bradford I wonder how things will pan out. Will things begin to unravel? Will it be the trigger for other things to unfold and force the true hand of certain people at the club?

Unfortunately there are still more questions than answers at this stage. As I've said before I think the next 18 months will reveal absolutely everything in my opinion. We'll find out definitively if Simon can develop as a manager or not and we'll find out what the building magnate's real plans for the club are and whether or not he's as genuine as some seem to think he is.

town supporter wrote:A couple of drinks into new year's eve but just occured to me the similarities between our esteemed manager and AVB. Think about it,  both come from privileged backgrounds, young and intelligent with plenty of ideas.  Sadly though, both are not cut out for management,  struggle to get their ideas across to the players and have spent big sumsof money with little success. Worth a ponder. Time to appoint the chuckle brother don't you think town ultra?

Have a happy new year all.

It wouldn't be the chuckle brothers.It would be chuckle and son!!
You remember,the son everyone in the pro game as been chasing
according to his dad for the last three years.  

town supporter wrote:A couple of drinks into new year's eve but just occured to me the similarities between our esteemed manager and AVB. Think about it,  both come from privileged backgrounds, young and intelligent with plenty of ideas.  Sadly though, both are not cut out for management,  struggle to get their ideas across to the players and have spent big sumsof money with little success. Worth a ponder. Time to appoint the chuckle brother don't you think town ultra?

Have a happy new year all.

I'm a little confused did i miss the past in Harrogate Towns history where they where some kind giant in the English game?. This is Harrogates level and to progress past this is going to take time and alot of graft. I would rather be here with what appears to be a carefully growing club then a Stockport county or Darlington etc etc. Its all to easy to slat a manager learning his trade it takes time look at Fergie bet the Man Utd fans asking for his head all them years ago feel like mugs now

But fergie didn't take 5 years to get going. We should be better than what we currently are.

We are in as good a position as we have ever been in our history, save one playoff finish under Aspin, It's not so bad?

Gareth192001 wrote:look at Fergie bet the Man Utd fans asking for his head all them years ago feel like mugs now

I hope they give David Moyes that long.

TownUltra. For the stature of our club, compared now to when Aspin was in charge. It is unacceptable in my opinion, and needs to improve.

Sorry Neil, I didn't understand your point. Please explain?

I think the club is doing a fantastic job and me personally i would like to see us go up and stay up with the structure settled for the club to continue to grow. If it takes a couple of years so be it Simons had 3 seasons each one better the the previous so things are on the up

Gareth192001 wrote:Simons had 3 seasons each one better the the previous

Both of those things are wrong.

The 'learning his trade' bit, must be nearing its sell by date now surely. As I've said elsewhere, everytime there are signs of improvement (and there have been), we seem to take a step back. This season's final league position is gonna be interesting to see and evaluate.

How can there be a time scale on learning? hes just passed his uefa A mid 30s wants the lads to play football i'm all for that vs some of the crap we've played this season. Needs to learn to win the ugly games

At the end of the day it's all about are we going up or and not league position, we could finish 2nd and still not go up. Are we finishing top 5? I think we will know by the end of Jan, it's a key month.

What happens if we don't? My feelings would be that there will be some lessons learnt about which players to go for next season to build on what is a good squad. I think some cash will be splashed on a proven / a couple of proven goalscorers. Hopefully Anton Brown will settle in and we will see what he is capable of, but if not then I think we do need an excellent box to box midfielder to supplement Bolder and Nowa capabilities. If we add that to the squad then we are in serious business and would have an excellent chance of going up in the couple of seasons after that.

Onwards and upwards Town. It's getting bigger and better all the time.

SIMON WEAVER's YELLOW AND BLACK ARMY. Eat, Sleep, Town, Repeat.

Chuckle brother if you're reading this, your son is a good player, but he's not being chased by a million prem teams. Chill out on the hair gel.

TownUltra wrote:Sorry Neil, I didn't understand your point. Please explain?

My point is that when Aspin was in charge, the infrastructure, finances and the reputation of the club werent the greatest, so to achieve what he did was good, hence why he is now reasonably successful at Halifax

Since Simon has been in situ, he struggled for the first 2 seasons, then dad has bought the club and improved everything about the club to the point of where we have a burgeoning reputation, we have better facilities, we can attract better players, i'm assuming he has a better budget than what Aspin ever had.

For all the things working in Simon's fortune at this club, with the calibre of the current playing squad. 9th isnt good enough.

You are very true in your assumption that we could finish second and not go up, but if i was a betting man, at this moment in time, I would say that the playoffs are a realistic target, but not a given.

I want the club to do well, but consistency is key, and the Jekyll and Hide performances have to stop, or decrease considerably, at the very least.

Gareth192001 wrote: hes just passed his uefa A  

Gareth Southgate has one of those. Matt Busby, Jock Stein, Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley, Alex Ferguson, Brian Clough, Don Revie, Joe Fagan, Kenny Dalglish, George Graham, Arrigo Sacchi, Fabio Cappello, Rinus Michels, Jupp Henckes, Johann Cruyff, Louis Van Gaal didn't have one between them. There are 35 million uk driving licence holders but 95% of them can't drive for s**t. I mean does anyone really believe that having a UEFA pro licence has had any bearing whatsoever on the success of Pep Guardiola, Jose Mourinho or Arsene Wenger? I bet they used theirs as toilet paper a long, long time ago.

Next season will be Simon's 6th in charge. I'm a fair guy. I can see both sides of the arguments. Although the bulk of the actual facts and evidence weigh heavily against the manager, there have been chinks of light and there are still a number of good reasons to let it play out for a bit longer. But I do disagree with you about timescale. There has to be one. Nobody should get immunity for life. As the saying goes, trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the very definition of insanity. Quite simply put, Simon has to up his game, he has to start doing better and fast. I know that some people seem happy for us just to tread water ad nauseum on the basis that it's better than the dark old days but if we are going to sustain momentum and really progress the club, we simply cannot afford to stand still or rest on our laurels.

Contrary to what people might think, I do really like Simon and nothing would please me more than for him to blossom into a first rate manager and take us to the next level. I wish him every success but there has to come a point when it's do or die. 6 years is more than a fair crack of the whip - for anyone.

TheNeil29 wrote:
My point is that when Aspin was in charge, the infrastructure, finances and the reputation of the club werent the greatest, so to achieve what he did was good, hence why he is now reasonably successful at Halifax

Since Simon has been in situ, he struggled for the first 2 seasons, then dad has bought the club and improved everything about the club to the point of where we have a burgeoning reputation, we have better facilities, we can attract better players, i'm assuming he has a better budget than what Aspin ever had.

Cracking point and one everybody should take on board instead of making excuses all the time. As I pointed out myself earlier in the season, there will always be someone with more money. Sometimes you have to punch above your weight but under Simon not only have we failed to do that, we've also failed to meet with expectations on the whole.

There are some fair points in the above. However with regards to the Aspin years, where are we basing the assertion that there wasn't much money being spent on players?

I was under the impression that Aspin budget was much higher than Weaver has had to play with, although I think we are starting to spend more as of this season, if rumour be true. From what I know Aspin/ Fotherby would play players with bundles of cash in hand. Not sure that is a fair comparison.

Also re Simon, let's remember the first season he was in charge he inherited a real mess and no budget whatsoever, we were lucky to still have club from what i heard. 2nd season midtable, 3rd season avoided relegation but didn't build on 2nd season, 4th season finished 6th which was a very good result with the budget? Okay not promotion but in the context of the mess we were in, not a bad performance. Feel free to launch into me calling me, a sycophant, docile etc for saying that!

I think the problem is the expectation set this year was too high. I think it would have been better to say look we are going to start spending some money now and we want to go up within the next 3 seasons rather than saying that we expect to be up there as title contenders this year. Because of that we look at the league position and think it's not good enough rather than evaluating from a longer term perspective.

Also this thing about there will always be somebody there with money? Very dangerous point of view surely?

There wasn't for Halifax, Darlington, Farsley, BPA all local clubs with bigger fanbases and reputations at their time of administration. Why would there be for Town? We are very lucky to have Irving and his investment and commitment to the club.

I do think though that we are all largely singing from the same page, most people seem to be looking at this with not just this season in mind but also thinking about what we look like by the end of next season/ season after that. For me if Simon does have the backing and hasn't gotten promotion in 2 seasons time then it would be time to reflect. Having said that i really believe we are 3 players- 2 mint, proven at this level, strikers and a centre midfielder away from a strong promotion contending team. Come on Town, do it. Remember if we went up that then isn't the end- look at how strong Chester were and are now looking like coming straight back down! Promotion is the Holy Grail but isn't the end of the journey.

if you're reading this thanks to the directors and Irving Weaver for investing their money and time in Town, it can't always be that easy. It's much appreciated! (by me anyway).

I'm sure simon works extremely hard, is motivated, hungry for success, blah blah blah, but come off it, he ain't very good and probably never will be.

Aspin is a cut above Weaver, well respected by his players, plays attractive football and gets results. Deacey is doing a reasonably good job on an average budget.

TS :

Aspin was at Town for quite a few seasons as manager. Didn't get us promoted with a higher budget than Weaver has had. Yes not a bad manager, but not a managerial god. Never got us to the FA Cup 2nd round either! It's easy to look back at the past with rose tinted spectacles. If Aspin was our manager now would we be going up? I don't think so. The league is much more competitive now than it was in the early 2000s with much more money bankrolling clubs than there was then.

Chuckle- a Town playing legend (had the same hairstyle in 1986). How do we know his budget? I'd say somebody is bankrolling BPA as they have as much support as a bad smell in a crowded lift, I bet he has as big a budget as Weaver. Half his team has left BPA mysteriously this season, including Mallory- who I think could be a great signing.

Anyway I know I mays well paint a target on my forehead with some of this stuff, as I know how certain people feel on this subject, and it's all been said before by both parties.

Also apologies for any typos today, had a few over the last couple of days and can't be bothered to spell check in my tiredness.

TownUltra wrote: Are we finishing top 5?

No.

Not unless some kind of holy miracle happens. Remember your prediction thread when I said you were being totally unrealistic and you got upset and said I was being conservative? You agreed that to get top 5 Simon would have to increase his win ratio from about 37% to at least 57% just to have a chance. How is that going so far? You had us down to lose 3 games between then and the end of the season. That was 7 games ago of which we have already lost 4!!! So presumably the win rate will have to be increased even more unrealistically if we are to have any chance. 60%-65% at least. I'm sorry but with all the will and blind faith in the world it just isn't going to happen.

Some of the communications coming out of the club lately have been down a bit bizarre and are even down right unprofessional at times, not least yesterday's gem that seemed to announce with a level of smug glee that despite not playing we hadn't lost any league places and find ourselves "only" 8 points of the playoffs. There's putting a positive spin on things and then there's outright propaganda...

I think this fan's eye view of chasing the top 4 is worth posting again because it doesn't seem to have sunk in:

Dark Knight wrote:
"Your mind starts playing tricks on you in 7th. You think "now if we win and they draw and then so and so lose we'll be a point off fourth". Things like that. You start thinking things like "Team A at home next week, that's three points right there". You start going through all these scenarios. You might even win a couple on the bounce. Then, just as you think you're making progress you get beat and everyone else picks up points and you're back in 7th again."

Since I posted that, things have played out almost exactly as described. And yet here we are seemingly about to do it all again. Some of the other teams have games in hand and whilst we know the teams at the top are all susceptible to surprise defeats, none of them go on the barren runs that we keep going on. Telford could be the second time this season we've lost 4 on the bounce. At the same time nobody would be surprised if we kick their arse either!

TownUltra wrote:There are some fair points in the above. However with regards to the Aspin years, where are we basing the assertion that there wasn't much money being spent on players?

I was under the impression that Aspin budget was much higher than Weaver has had to play with, although I think we are starting to spend more as of this season, if rumour be true. From what I know Aspin/ Fotherby would play players with bundles of cash in hand. Not sure that is a fair comparison.

Also re Simon, let's remember the first season he was in charge he inherited  a real mess and no budget whatsoever, we were lucky to still have club from what i heard. 2nd season midtable, 3rd season avoided relegation but didn't build on 2nd season, 4th season finished 6th which was a very good result with the budget? Okay not promotion but in the context of the mess we were in, not a bad performance. Feel free to launch into me calling me, a sycophant, docile etc for saying that!

I think the problem is the expectation set this year was too high. I think it would have been better to say look we are going to start spending some money now and we want to go up within the next 3 seasons rather than saying that we expect to be up there as title contenders this year. Because of that we look at the league position and think it's not good enough rather than evaluating from a longer term perspective.

Also this thing about there will always be somebody there with money? Very dangerous point of view surely?

There wasn't for Halifax, Darlington, Farsley, BPA all local clubs with bigger fanbases and reputations at their time of administration. Why would there be for Town? We are very lucky to have Irving and his investment and commitment to the club.

I do think though that we are all largely singing from the same page, most people seem to be looking at this with not just this season in mind but also thinking about what we look like by the end of next season/ season after that. For me if Simon does have the backing and hasn't gotten promotion in 2 seasons time then it would be time to reflect. Having said that i really believe we are 3 players- 2 mint, proven at this level, strikers and a centre midfielder away from a strong promotion contending team. Come on Town, do it. Remember if we went up that then isn't the end- look at how strong Chester were and are now looking like coming straight back down! Promotion is the Holy Grail but isn't the end of the journey.

if you're reading this thanks to the directors and Irving Weaver for investing their money and time in Town, it can't always be that easy. It's much appreciated! (by me anyway).

I'm extremely confused with all this talk of budgets and using them in defence of our manager. I thought the whole point of this pact with the devil that we made was that Simon can stay in the job as long as he wants on the understanding it's because his Daddy is bankrolling it. But reading the stuff on here suggests that Irving isn't really putting enough money in to justify this situation. He's clearly going to have to dig deeper into his pockets if we are going to go up anytime soon.

TownUltra wrote:Also this thing about there will always be somebody there with money? Very dangerous point of view surely?

Once again you've spectacularly missed my point. I'm talking about the budget or lack of it, which can never be an excuse. No matter how much we have, there will always be someone who has more. The last ten years Chelsea have had more money than anyone else but they haven't won the league every year have they? Now City have come along with even more money but Chelsea don't sit there moaning that their budget isn't as big as City's, they just get on with the business of trying to finish above them. As do Arsenal and the rest. And above all else, as I'm tired of stressing, money only takes you so far. There have been plenty of big spending teams, at all levels, who fail time after time. What you need to achieve success isn't a bigger budget, it's expertise. That's what you pay for. Have we got that expertise? I have my doubts.

TownUltra wrote:I think the problem is the expectation set this year was too high

If anything expectations are currently way too low. As the season has panned out it's become clearer and clearer that this group of players at the very least should be challenging for the top 2 or 3 places.

DK, i didn't get upset with your comment about the thread being unrealistic, as I never get upset about any comments, I enjoy, and encourage, the debate.

It was a fair comment it was / is going to be tough to get in the Top 5. However as I have stated previously, without apology, i'm a naturally optimistic person and will always believe that whilst there is a chance of us going up no matter how slim I will try to encourage my team to achieve the objective rather than continually criticise and snipe, at the chairman / management and players which although it is fair enough to be able to have the opinion to do so, I do not believe actually helps us. IMO.

Also I appreciate you make your 'Pact with the devil' comment without much thought, but i think that is a highly offensive comment to make about what Irving Weaver has done for the club and for the supporters and the investment he and others have and are making.

I also wonder how / why you are trying to twist a simple statement from the club about where we are into an attempt to spin something into something else. You're reading something into nothing there the club is a force for good not a malevolent political organism hell bent on reaping our souls.

I don't get it DK sometimes. The anger, frustration, like a young Annekin about to walk into the Jedi temple. I sense good in you though, I will persevere.

TownUltra wrote:
Also I appreciate you make your 'Pact with the devil' comment without much thought, but i think that is a highly offensive comment to make about what Irving Weaver has done for the club and for the supporters and the investment he and others have and are making.

Please could you furnish me with full details of what exactly Irving has done for Town, that go above and beyond the normal and expected requirements of a club chairman and how much of his own money he has put into the club. I keep hearing and seeing the mantra but nobody seems to be able to lay down any actual facts, no matter how often I've asked for them.