Club debt and its decade + future

Moved from the Chorley thread......thought this perhaps merited its own thread given the magnitude of the question and the fact that either i must be either very blind to what has been said in recent years on the topic or nothing has ever been confirmed by the club but three big questions would be great if anyone knows anything on and get an idea on:

How much debt has been built during the Weaver tenure?

Where does it go - is it being converted into equity each year or is it sitting somehwere to be called in when our manager leaves?

What are the contingencies for this accruel of debt when we are full time? Do we really have the revenue to cover it?

TownFan's starter for ten, from the Chorley thread:


Funny, this started off as a Chorley game preview and reflection and has now got onto this.
Let me try and shed some light.
The budget will be slightly higher next season as the wages we pay currently are high.
Our average home gate two years ago was just over 600 (including comps) - our average gate this season is just under 900 (inc. comps) and with Salford and Halifax to come it will be over 900.
Our hospitality lounge currently holds 80 and is oversubscribed at present so it is being enlarged this summer to take more paying customers.
Our 1919 venue is now used for more parties/weddings/functions than ever before
3G.....
The club no longer has the expense of hiring out training facilities twice a week for 45 weeks.
The ground is now being hired out seven days a week bringing in more money to the club.
We will shortly have a second 3G pitch to use and hire out.
Hope that helps.
--

All pretty much expected - as you say will save money on training ground rental but given Maidstone average around 1500+ more than us and are far better developed off the pitch commercially, they have been very  cautious about going full time vs Town's approach - such is the cost and commitment for any club making this switch, a division above us!

In light of this, we must be generating some big money from somewhere else.....or it is just accumulating as debt. And building year after year.

The same could be said of the 2 pitches, both cost a sizeable amount of money. Is this a case of them both being given over free and the money spent being totally written off with no future come back on the club outside of the 6 figure cost to replace both of them every 3-4 years.

I have probably missed this TownFan but do you know, or again, anyone know what is happening to the accrual of debt? Does it get written off each year? What happens to any long term debt when the Weavers go? Is the Year on Year debt being written off and converted into equity?

Suppose it's both a past and future facing question! One which could have very obvious and very big implications for HTFC when the manager departs. Apologies if i have missed this being discussed with fans in the past but is a Town existing for decades to come or Town going out of business at the end of Simon's tenure impacting topic!

Again apologies if this is a readily known topic but just can't seem to remember anything being confirmed and perhaps good for us and the club to maybe talk about the topic, especially given previous claims of self sufficiency, especially amid the club's 'unique' set up. Unless we all expect to have the same manager for the next 10 years onwards.

Thought we were owned by the Weavers company ( the housebuilder) so all debt maybe swallowed up in the general running of the company. I thought this was how it was managed in other football clubs run in a similar manner.

2 New directors joined the club back in October!!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

To help with the process of going full-time!

Think the FIFA Quality PRO 3G pitch @ Town will need the top surface replaced after around 8 years!
& has to be tested every year!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The FIFA Quality 3G pitch @ St John Fishers School is designed to last longer I think!

St John Fishers School
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The 3g pitch here was part funded by the School, The FA, as well as Irving
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think the club will help run the facility after School hours with both the School & Harrogate Town benefiting from any revenue generated!

Some of the developments @ the CNG over recent years have been part funded by grants from the Football Foundation [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The club rarely pay out to other clubs for contracted players!

The main Shareholders @ Town are Strata Homes!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

You don’t make money running a football club, especially @ this level but you do need to make enough to cover your costs and to keep any debt to a manageable level!
Hopefully the business plan in place will help to do this with the extra cost of going full-time!

Good info Big Lundy - cheers.

Didn't Maidstone have to relay theirs after 3 or so years and is the same as ours? Ups the pressure on renting out the pitches with that frequency. We paid for Leesley and Thanoj according to a local journo down Alfreton way. And as we know we pay big wages for our level and size.

I don't even thing the club could confidently say that they cover their costs and keep debt manageable as it is. Worrying but as you say there must be a plan both in the immediate and when Simon goes eventually.

Interesting the new directors are part of the 'firm'. Thought incorrectly that they would be external from Strata homes.

So the club is on the balance sheet of a multi million pound company then? A worrying position for the club, especially when the current owners do move on. A move linked to when our manager goes. Nothing to worry about there then...........

All the talk of being sustainable but this is the reality, the reality of a debt accruing asset on a balance sheet of another multi million pound company, whose debts can be called in and the end of HTFC and as a club on Wetherby Road - such are the state of local council finances.

Again unless anyone knows that an exit arrangement has been set in stone and confirmed? One that will guarantee we are not swamped with these debts built on the back of Simon's annual qust? Please let that be the case!!! There must be something that sets out and safeguards the future of the club given our unique position.

I am hoping that a few fans must know that there is one and we can rest easy safe in the knowledge that the club has a future beyond the Weaver's tenure. Would be welcome news for sure. As at the moment we could find ourselves finding out, as the saying goes, that there ain't no thing as a free lunch......with the club's demise.

Does anyone think the debts built over the years will be just written off when they depart?

I would imagine that any debt accrued every year would be written off in the accounts of Strata. Any debt would surely reduce their tax bill (marginally).
You seem to paint a "doom and gloom" picture most times you post on here, is it your hobby?

Townfan wrote:I would imagine that any debt accrued every year would be written off in the accounts of Strata.  Any debt would surely reduce their tax bill (marginally).
You seem to paint a "doom and gloom" picture most times you post on here, is it your hobby?

No just worried about where all this debt goes, especially as you seem to be working on assumptions and all I am keen to get is just proper clarification on what could become a huge thing for future of the club in a few years . Is that ok with you?

No guarantees, but there have been new rules put in place recently
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
And there are plenty of rules to abide by each season to compete @ this level
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I am probably being very naive but surely Strata and Irving are rich enough to actually pay upfront for all the changes. Why should there be debt at all?

Thanks BigLundy - you kind of wonder how robust those rules are vs football league rules when you see the likes of Leyton Orient being allowed to be 'run' and owned the way they are and a fair few other clubs over recent years.

We can't really answer the question of what happens to the debt when the Weavers go can we? Hopefully there is someone out there outside of the club that knows.

All boils down to a simple question and simple response hopefully but one that has a huge bearing on the future of the club when father or son gets tired of repeating the same end product year after year. Owner is here for the manager and that is something already unique in football that we put up with along with end product of this - the mind numbingly repetitive seasons, last year apart. Any other owner and Simon would have been gone seasons ago.

So due to this unique fact, that we are owned by someone in order to further their sons career - a process that is seeing the club rack up big losses relative to its level of football - it is perhaps relevant that this question is posed, especially as we move towards the EIGTH year!

A question that can be hopefully answered quickly and reassuringly by the club - what happens to the accrued debt when they leave, will the club ultimately be accountable for it, given as it does, sit on the balance sheet of a company?

Trouble is Simon is still pretty young so this could be a long, long story. Doesn't really bear thinking about. Especially if you are not getting any younger like me!

Hi, following Town's fortunes from a distance, I'm wondering if Simon or the Weavers in have been asked about this unique experiment......If so what was the answer or is this like others have said, a topic off limits.......In my opinion it's a sad state of affairs from the team I watched as a boy, non-league was non-league if you wanted a burst of league football Elland Road is only a stones throw away......
Just sayin like...............

I think some time ago Irving said, more or less, as long as he is here, so will Simon. The club has now developed in many directions and could surely do with a Director of Football. Simon.would be ideal, then we could have a first team manager. It's the obvious solution but will not happen sadly. Imagine Adam.Lockwood who has done wonders at Guiseley here at town. In my dreams alas.

Hi Guys, as mentioned above by Paulstreet, we all know the situation regarding the Weavers and the situation we are having to deal with. It is sad in a way, because behind the scenes the club is know better than ever before with everything that is now in place. If you look at our infrastructure and how the whole business is run, we really should be in the conference national and holding our own. But sadly we have Simon running the team and we all know unless he strikes it lucky we will never get to the promised land i'm afraid.
With every year this league seems to get tougher and tougher, if you look at some of the clubs in this league this year compared to 10years ago its pretty scary, and if you look at the calibre of teams fighting at the bottom of the National (York City, Torquay Utd and Woking to name a few, it isnt going to get any easier. So i agree with Paulstreet and think that the best way to deal with the whole situation is for Simon to move on uo to the DOF position where he can still play with his train set as he likes and then we can get a manager in who will hopefully will take us to the next level.
My only concern there would be how much influence would Simon have over the manager and would the manager just be Simons glorified puppet!! or another thought? would a half decent manager want to work under both Simon and Irving? just a thought. Personally, i would give Simon one more season, of which we will be full time, if he cannot manage this team on a full time basis where he will have daily prolonged interaction with his team then he will never make it work, and then i really think it would be time for serious fan pressure to get them out, because without the fans then they cannot run there business....

Adding to my post above, the most frustrating think of all is that Irving is a clever guy...you don't get to where he is without having sound buisness knowledge and that winning mentality. Yet here we are with him now running a football club, and in my eyes he is doing everything correct except the one thing we all know..and yes i get it, he's family, but still, use your instinct, Town are so close, the jigsaw is almost complete, remove the one piece that doesn't fit and place the square peg in the square hole like we all get taught at junior school lol.

Some of the new rules!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]